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/sci/ - Science & Math


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1824749 No.1824749 [Reply] [Original] [archived.moe]
Quoted by: >>1824957 >>1824993

Hello /sci/

Today I come before you to speak for a different kind of society. One which functions in complete accordance with the scientific method. No more corrupt businessmen, politicians, and greed.

Under this society, the application of science is employed to help maximize the potential and happiness of the human race.

Children are taught to be curious of nature, and to seek truth and have compassion for others instead of having religion shoved down their throats.

Scientists, as well as everyone else, are given the resources needed to carry out their experiments, and no longer have to carry out loans or worry about growing broke.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXWnFeG5EyA

Automatically, most of you will most likely refute this society as a "utopian dream"

All I ask is that you think critically and keep an open mind as you watch.

If you're interested, check out

thevenusproject.com
thezeitgeistmovement.com

>> No.1824759

bump

>> No.1824762
Quoted by: >>1824775

inb4 mega flame and conspiracies

>> No.1824774
Quoted by: >>1824786

>Implying that people would ever get over their love of materialism and money

Cool story, bro.

>> No.1824775
Quoted by: >>1824782

>>1824762

The Venus project isn't a conspiracy theory; it's a call for a science based society...thought this would be right up /sci/'s alley....seeing as how you seem to like science and all...

>> No.1824778
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1824778
Quoted by: >>1824800

Need to lose Jacques city designs. Other than that, sounds pretty cool.
Also you'll love reading this if you liked the concept of the Venus Project.
http://www.marshallbrain.com/manna1.htm

>> No.1824782

>>1824775
>Zeitgeist
>Not a conspiracy
Oh...ok.

>> No.1824785

I LOVE THIS IDEA

>> No.1824786
Quoted by: >>1824807

>>1824774

Here's the thing; we have the resources in the world to supply everyone with the food, shelter and material possessions they require.

The only reason why greed exists in this society is that its perpetuated by capitalism and the media.

The scientific community has unanimously agreed that greed is not an inherent trait of mankind. Several studies within isolated civilizations show that the people share natural resources with each other and greed simply does not exist.

Try to keep an open mind...I know it's difficult given the nature of our society

>> No.1824800

>>1824778

Thanks anon.

Yeah, the city designs sort of bring unnecessary flair and futurism to the whole idea imo but I can see their rhetorical value

>> No.1824807
Quoted by: >>1824813 >>1824825

>>1824786
Greed is simply a manifestation of our most basic instinct - to survive

>> No.1824813

>>1824807

In this society everyone is given what they need; therefore the basic instinct of greed, as you put it, doesn't apply here.

Furthremore, if we're brought up in an environment which doesn't stress materialism, we wouldn't be greedy.

The environment really shapes who we are as people

>> No.1824825
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1824825
Quoted by: >>1824831

>>1824807

What if suddenly all you needed to survive was available to you by default?
What if even many luxuries like high speed internet and excellent medical care were available by default?
Nuoh my god

>> No.1824831

>>1824825

this anon gets it.

bumping with more Jacques Fresco

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVOPkGAtt48&feature=related

>> No.1824834

Technocracy is one of those theoretical societies that currently lack the means to sustain their subjects.

You can't have open thought and objectivity if its forced, the people will blame their problems on the society, reject the doctrine, and provide resistance.

You can't have a society of highly educated individuals without a labor force, and since slaves are immoral, and robots are still too far off, we would need an oppressed people.

Without drive, people would work till they had enough money to be content, which works only in micro-economic settings; macro economies require overbearing consumption, or at least capitalism does.

If not capitalism, you would need a system where someone is in control of a majority of the nations wealth pooled to provide investments. Government controlled pools are notorious for being corrupt and providing a tougher deadlock on research and funding.

All I have said is subjectively accurate, but so is a society that believes it could manage to maintain such high standards with human subjects.

I WANT to believe this system would work without a 3rd party oppressive controller dictating resources, but I don't see it working with present humanity.

We're hundreds of years too early.

>> No.1824844

>>1824834

You're absolutely right.

That's why, unfortunate as it is, The Venus Project has no chance of occurring until we're faced with another depression (it may be starting now).

Once people become upset with their environment, lose their jobs, and their comforts become dissolved, they'll see that change needs to occur.

People dont fix things unless broken

>> No.1824852
Quoted by: >>1824906

>>1824834

Robots aren't far off at all...we're already approaching the point where cashiers and laborers are being replaced.

And technology is advancing exponentially.

>> No.1824853
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1824853

Familiarity with the scientific method does not mean political/ethical alignment, a society that believes so will be torn apart by strife and discontent. Many political questions don't have scientific answers. (lol sociology ;))

>> No.1824862
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1824862

>>1824834
>and robots are still too far off

>> No.1824889
Quoted by: >>1824901

>>1824834
Unless we were able to sustain a workforce that didn't require payment in any way, it's nearly entirely impossible for things to change economically or politically (especially in this sense) in a big way, and for any of us to maintain a lifestyle similar to what we know now. That is to say, that without consumers, and a materialistic, consumeristic mindset being so prevalent in society, the vast majority of us would be unemployed, and therefore unable to meet our basic needs unless we were allowed free property and that basics for farming, and even those would likely have to be provided by the government, as well as (in most cases) the training to be able to farm sufficiently to support a family.

>> No.1824897
Quoted by: >>1824912

yeah.. its called communism. Not that it's bad or anything, i mean, personally, i believe that if we abolished all human rights and was ruled by one governing body, then the world would be a much better, happier, place with science progressing faster than anybody can ever imagine.

>> No.1824901

>>1824889

I happen to like my consumer society. You know, as opposed to living in a cave with animal hides for clothes.

Only when everyone is a producer and a consumer, with the economic leverage of machinery, can we have a perfect economy.

>> No.1824902

This is a noble cause OP, a noble cause indeed.

However, without the incorporation of the proper concept of God, none may ever grow out of their greedy and corrupt ways.

I also sincerely hope people in this thread aren't of those who somehow have come to believe that God and science cannot coexist... for if you adopt the proper concept of God, you will clearly see that God is the best scientist, and we can merely figure out some of the things that are on this Earth.

Always remember, since the publication of the electromagnetic spectrum, we've learned that our 5 basic senses give us less than one millionth of reality.

>> No.1824906

>>1824852
And very soon we will have self replicating robots that will allow us to mine asteroids (a bit off topic but it still contributes to the whole Utopian society thing by giving us near unlimited resources with minimal effort)

And in case you were wondering
1 - Put self replicating robot on an asteroid
2 - Get that robot to make more robots
3 - Robots make a mine and refinery on asteroid
4 - Send refined materials back to earth

>> No.1824912

>>1824897

Anarchism > Communism.

A 'soviet' was originally a council of workers, until Lenin fucked over direct democracy in favor of his crazy dictatorship.

Because communists don't trust the people to run things. How ironic.

>> No.1824924
Quoted by: >>1824939 >>1825045

Seems like many people are happy to simply refute this idea without actually learning about what the venus project is.

FACT: technology will be able to replace about 95% of the service/manual labor industries in the nest 60 years

FACT: all other "boring" jobs only exists because of the monetary system and hence, under the venus project, wouldn't exist.

FACT: Communism includes a government, media indoctrination, prisons, police, money, and social stratification. The concept of the venus project has none of those.

All I'm asking is that we all think critically when we're approached with new ideas.

I'm disappointed in /sci/, only a few people even considered the idea.

How can you say you're any better than the christians if you, like them, refute any idea which challenges your notion of the status quo?

Something to think about, that's all

>> No.1824933

Lols this idea is so fucking stupid me and my friends had a huge argument about this. For one the guys pitching this are just out to get some spot light. Look into that venus project guy "Jacque Fresco" hes got a self proclaimed Doctorate. Go find the supposed college he went to...that discredits him right there for lying about having a degree. Next that world can't work. You know why people like this world because it's interesting things you have others don't vice versa...no one actually wants to live in that shitty boring world where everyone has the same shit.

>> No.1824939

>>1824924

If it is at all possible utopia has to be accomplished in stages. First basics like food, then we move to free education and healthcare, then worker's democracy, then perhaps we can talk of getting rid of money.

I don't think it's possible to completely eliminate traits like selfishness, and I wouldn't care to try.

>> No.1824946

>>1824933
>no one actually wants to live in that shitty boring world where everyone has the same shit.
wat?

>> No.1824952

>>1824933

I'm going to assume you aren't trolling, for sake of argument.

Jacques Fresco worked as an aircraft designer for the U.S. military and was self-taught.

But this is irrelevant; attack the IDEAS not the person. ad hominem arguments are among the lowest form of rhetoric.

With the Venus project everyone has the best resources available; greed is unnecessary if everyone has whatever they want.

Jacques Fresco isn't interested in the "spotlight" but again, that's irrelevant.

Just another example of how society doesn't produce critical thinkers who can argue intelligibly.

>> No.1824957

>>OP
>>OP
is this even feasible? i mean, will it ever "take off"? Sure, after they get 1 mil members and fire 1 off at the politians, wut happens if they get rejected? So many endless possibilities for failure, yet i admire their spirit.

>> No.1824959 [DELETED] 
Quoted by: >>1824964 >>1824991

>Automatically, most of you will most likely refute this society as a "utopian dream"
That's because it is. Nothing will come of this and you know it.

Let's start with something basic: location.
On who's soil shall your society be located?
How will you obtain this land?
Will you buy it? How will you obtain funding?
Will you overthrow the local government and take the land by force?

>> No.1824964
Quoted by: >>1824970 >>1825014

>>1824959

The monetary system will eventually collapse; it's simply a matter of time.

The only way to produce money is out of dept; the world's dept keeps increasing trillions of dollars every few years or so.

learn2economics

>> No.1824970
Quoted by: >>1824972

>>1824964
>>1824964
yeah, but ever time it collapses a recession occurs and after a couple years of misery everything's back to normal. I suppose you could just nuke africa...

>> No.1824972
Quoted by: >>1825009

>>1824970

>nuke africa

aaaand that's when I figured out you were a troll

>> No.1824973
Quoted by: >>1824995 >>1824998

This society can't work because of the fact that as others have said the term "greed" is a basic instinct of life. Assuming everyone has all the same shit one thing remains people still fall in love and jealously can come from that so what happens when people start killing each other in this society?

>> No.1824989

The venus project website use to say all over it how he had his doctorates from some school that didn't exist...I looked into this stuff quite awhile back then decided I wasted enough time on the crack pipe.

>> No.1824991

>>1824933
You're right. It's not enough to have a supersonic 1 person jet, you must be the ONLY ONE who has one.
>>1824959
Good argument. Killing a billon ppl for the sake of a very bright future sucks. Every life is valuable, especially the lifes of niggers. We couldn't just kill every nigger on this planet to make more room for everyone else. Nigger must absolutly have control over africa because nigger put so much work in making africa the best continent of this planet over the last 10millenia, they really deserve africa.

>> No.1824993
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1824993

>>OP

Humans are not capable of this.
maybe its time for change.

>> No.1824995
Quoted by: >>1825031

>>1824973

Greed isn't inherent, despite what you've been brought up to believe. I've actually been to isolated societies in Africa, where tribes of 300-500 people just share food and other resources with each other; everyone is accounted for and no one person desires having more material goods over anyone else.

Psychology, sociology, and much of the scientific community agree with me when it comes to that.

And I mean think about it; if you're brought up in a society that teaches you materialism is wrong, you won't be greedy.

It's much easier to do that imo than to indoctrinate millions of people into believing an invisible man cries when they masterbate or that all jews should be killed (two events which obviously happened)

You brought up a good point; I still believe that just because of simple statistics SOME crime will still occur. But the fact of the matter is that over 70% of the crimes committed today are done over money. Most others are most likely due to the media; which, among other things, stresses the difference between men and women, and promotes jealousy and other emotions to take place.

>> No.1824998

>>1824973
>everyone lives like a millionares
>oh no some people like to be greater than others so civil war will spontaneously appear

>> No.1825009
Quoted by: >>1825017

>>1824972
>>1824972
no, i have a perfectly plausible explanation for it, see, international aid is costing a few billion every year, to the hungry starving children in africa and india, however, the problem is, the more children survive to sexual maturity, the more children they themselves make, thus the bigger drain on international funding. This is due to the fact that they are under the pretense that if they do not have 5 or more kids, not 1 will reach maturity to take care of them when they are older. Human rights aside, the logical choice is to either kill them all off, or limit population growth case study: china. Unfortunately, india does not have a dictatorship government and africa has no government. Thus the logical way would be just to kill them all (human rights aside) Also, in addition, this would allow the world to slow down economic drain and reduce debt.

>> No.1825014 [DELETED] 
Quoted by: >>1825026

>>1824964
>The monetary system will eventually collapse; it's simply a matter of time.
...and people go back to using the barter system.

learn2economics.

>> No.1825017
Quoted by: >>1825028

>>1825009

The Iraq war costs far more than that a year. Therefore the logical choice would be to abandon the war...same argument could be made for anything too.

I really hope you're trolling, because you're sounding so retarded right now

>> No.1825023

So if we reject reality and what we have been "indoctrinated" to believe in over however much time you believe humans have been around then yes this should work immediately. Goodluck I hope everyone can get over sharing their wives with everyone. lol night guys

>> No.1825025
Quoted by: >>1825030

Fresco had the mechanism right (robotics) but the economics of it all wrong. Still, considered one of the pioneering minds of post scarcity economics. Sort of like how Freud is considered one of the key minds in psychology despite most of his positions on the matter having since been discredited.

>> No.1825026
Quoted by: >>1825077

>>1825014

You don't seem to understand how economics works...

If the system collapses, then martial law is declared and everyone must fend for themselves. Fuck the barter economy; banks would crash, shit would go down, society would be torn to shreds. The only way out would be if enough people decided to begin thinking about the venus project

>> No.1825028
Quoted by: >>1825034

>>1825017
>>1825017
>>1825017
yeah, but that's US money, not global, plus the 3rd world population would increase exponentially with no limit if funding is given, i.e. 1 mil 1 year, 10 mil after the 5th year, and 100 mill the 10th year. etc.

>> No.1825030
Quoted by: >>1825035

>>1825025

>implying economics is relevant to the society of the venus project

>> No.1825031

>>1824995
Collective greed man, it exists. Also, LOL@greed has nothing to do with evolution; humanity wouldn't have made it without greed.

>> No.1825034

>>1825028

Obvious troll is obvious.

No one's that retarded. Can't believe that anon was arguing with him for so long...he's prolly an idiot too

>> No.1825035
Quoted by: >>1825043 >>1825049

>>1825030

Only because no real thought was given to the economics of the Venus project. Fresco had only a basic understanding of the subject and his model was highly unrealistic.

>> No.1825043

>>1825035

hmm interesting idea. What do you feel is lacking in his model? What would you change?

>> No.1825045
Quoted by: >>1825052 >>1825056

>>1824924
FACT: [unsubstantiated claim requiring huge leap of faith]

FACT: [unsubstantiated claim requiring huge leap of faith]

FACT: [deceptive claim dodging the real issue]

but I mean, cmon guys, just think about it critically!!

>> No.1825049

>>1825035
>>1825035
>>1825035
you could always appeal to the chinese millionaires. they're always good for anytihng involving communism XD

>> No.1825052
Quoted by: >>1825078

>>1825045

my source is the scientific community...maybe you should do research first.

IE moore's law.

>> No.1825056
Quoted by: >>1825061

>>1825045
>>1825045
that may be, but who said communism was bad?

>> No.1825061
Quoted by: >>1825071

>>1825056
the real problem with communism has nothing to do with monetary systems, etc., it has to do with the absolute centralization of power. who watches the watchmen, and all that jazz.

>> No.1825071 [DELETED] 
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1825071

>>1825061

>makes profound political argument
>uses a movie as supporting evidence
>mfw

>> No.1825077
Quoted by: >>1825087 >>1825120

>>1825026
No I think you're the one who doesn't understand.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barter
>Barter usually replaces money as the method of exchange in times of monetary crisis, when the currency is unstable and devalued by hyperinflation.

When money becomes worthless people trade goods like clothing, ammunition, and metals instead of money to get the things that they need like food. It's how things were done BEFORE money. It's how things will be done AFTER money.

>> No.1825078

>>1825052
>the scientific community
Wow. Could you be any more vague?

>> No.1825087

>>1825077
Bartering is the wet dream of all anarchists and libertarians. Seriously, they cream themselves over the idea of spending two hours with their neighbor arguing over the price of a watch.

>> No.1825120

>>1825077
I think you don't understand. Money always comes back because money is easier than barter, and fairer. Read some Rand if you want a fresh perspective on money and value and reason.

The only way the Federation's socialist system works is that instead of money, everyone's contributions to society are automatically tracked by computer, and the computer tells what level of goods and services is available to that person.

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