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/sci/ - Science & Math


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2264657 No.2264657 [Reply] [Original] [archived.moe]

What do you think of the venus project?

>> No.2264663
Quoted by: >>2264723

Communism? No thanks.

>> No.2264670

Signed up a few months back, proposed to translate the page into my native tongue for free

I don't think they were interested

>> No.2264678
Quoted by: >>2264687

My initial response too. Gone any further with it?

>> No.2264682
File: 68 KB, 761x608, capitalcityTRS.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
2264682

Resource-based economy has incredible potential.

>> No.2264687

>>2264678

If you're talking to me, no. I really gave up on it, nobody will ever want this thanks to Americans thinking communism = evil.

It would be really cool if everyone could just be like that, but that probably wont happen in my life span so I'm just going to sit back and hope the unlikely event of an afterlife

>> No.2264695
Quoted by: >>2265381

I hate it. It puts a pretty name and the picture of an irrelevant old man on something scientists have striven toward for centuries: A better life for all.

It also invites assholes and conspiracy theorists from the zeitgeist thing. No thanks.

>> No.2264723
Quoted by: >>2264835

>>2264663
Communism is probably not that bad.
think about it:
russia managed to go from a shitty farm country to a competitor to the US in like 30 years under communism and now they are going back into shittines. Rusia can't get anything right.

china on the other hand is in a far more powerful economic condition than the US with their trillions of dollars in savings.

everyone just assumed that just becase Russia fucked up communism it is a failurie, but now it is apparent that Russia just fucks everything up.

>> No.2264748

It is a bunch of bullshit created by a crazy asshole. You would have to be a fucking idiot to take Jacque Fresco seriously.

>> No.2264762
Quoted by: >>2264804

it's communism dressed up with pretty pictures of futuristic cities.

as for theocracy - already starting to happen in our capitalist society - many regulations and judgments today is being done by administrative tribunals made up mostly of experts in the field being regulated

- unfortunately it isn't working out well because of the legal expertise required for making regulations and decisions is lacking.

>> No.2264804

>>2264762
its not really dressed up, its very obvious.

>> No.2264827
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2264827

I have nothing against communism. Maslow thought you could be more productive when all basic needs were covered, and to some extent, it's probably true.

Then again, communism has some obvious problems with workers' motivation to work.. And I guess we all thrive to get better things, so it'd be hard to keep everyone in an equal situation - some would try to get a better car, bigger house, faster internet (lol)..

For communism to work, humans have to want to reach a "bigger goal" as a community. That's hard
to achieve.

wtf is this captcha?

>> No.2264835
Quoted by: >>2264869 >>2264911

>>2264723
Russia didn't become powerful because of Communism. They did it because of their authoritarian dictatorship and the threat of being sent to the gulags.

China only started to come to economic prominence because they've adopted some capitalist policies, but also uses ruthless regulations to make sure it stays in line with the government's agenda.

>> No.2264850
Quoted by: >>2264899

The Venus Project would never work at this time, or anywhere in the near future unless something drastic happens.

To start something like this would take a lot of dedicated people. It would also require a world run by corporations to just stop being run by corporations. Which just won't happen.

It's one of those things that work's in theory but not necessarily in execution.

I do think however that if we ever were to say in the future colonize another planet/the moon or have space stations, this may work.

But once again that is theories, and there is no way to tell if we would ever have colonies on other planets or in space stations.

>> No.2264869
Quoted by: >>2264894

>>2264835

This.

Anyone who thinks communism is a viable economic strategy is invited to offer a single example of it working. /thread

see wut i did thar?

>> No.2264894
Quoted by: >>2264906

>>2264869
Christian monasteries. It's important to not confuse communism with Marxism.

>> No.2264899
Quoted by: >>2264917

>>2264850
>The Venus Project would never work at this time, or anywhere in the near future unless something drastic happens.
Jacque Fresco said that 'the system HAS to fail'

>> No.2264906
Quoted by: >>2264914 >>2264915

>>2264894

It's important to not confuse a community small enough to fit into a large building with a community of millions. You people never seem to realize that.

>> No.2264911

>>2264835

China's growth was reasonably good even before marketisation, whereas India's market was freer than China's up until the 90s and it still lagged behind. If you are truly interested in the causes of growth you would look beyond political demagoguery.

>> No.2264914
Quoted by: >>2264920

>>2264906
You asked for examples of communism being a viable economic strategy, and I gave you one. Don't get butthurt just because it wasn't in the context you assumed it must be in.

>> No.2264915

>>2264906

>Asks for an example
>Gets an example
>Redefines what he originally asked for

Moving goalposts up in your shit, yo.

>> No.2264917

>>2264899
Must've missed that part.
Well then, at least he understand that it would only work for a newly starting community/ a broken one.

Some people come up with theories and think its the next big thing to happen.

>> No.2264918
Quoted by: >>2264938

peak oil will be the crisis that kicks communism into gear. from there we will create utopia for each tribe. fear god! he is coming!

>> No.2264920
Quoted by: >>2264930

>>2264914

Are you retarded? We can't all live in monastaries. You might think you're cute giving that example but really you just come off looking like someone who has no sense of reality, which is funny because that's the only way communism makes any sense.

I'm not redefining anything. I'm pointing out how your example is meaningless in this context.

>> No.2264930

>>2264920

So you start by moving the goalpost and transition into ad hominem? Man, you must convince people ALL THE TIME.

>> No.2264938

>>2264918
Peak oil is pushing the development of renewable and nuclear energy, which is doing just fine in our capitalist system.

>> No.2264951

I wrote to Jacque, I am all for the Venus Project.

>> No.2265163
Quoted by: >>2265184

Can any provide additional interviews with Jacque other than those on www.thevenusproject.com?

>> No.2265181

>Ctrl-F
>"technocracy"
>Not found
>"communism"
>15 matches
What?

>> No.2265184
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2265184
Quoted by: >>2265189 >>2265206

>>2265163
He did a documentary called Future by Design.

>> No.2265186

I say go for it. I'll participate in it if it goes anywhere.

>> No.2265189
Quoted by: >>2265192

>>2265184
Fuck off Inurdaes. No one cares about your lame fantasies.

>> No.2265192

>>2265189
You seem UPSET

>> No.2265206
Quoted by: >>2265210

>>2265184

>Implying Inurdaes is my Architect

>> No.2265210
Quoted by: >>2265216 >>2265231

>>2265206
The plan is for me to set it up (along with a bunch of other people) and then hang in the shadows and make sure the government isn't turning the country into ass. See: United States of America

But this isn't a thread for this, so if anyone's interested make another.

>> No.2265216
Quoted by: >>2265225

>>2265210
fucking immature tripfags, how do they work?

>> No.2265225
Quoted by: >>2265235

>>2265216
Do you seriously want to start?

>> No.2265229

>heyguyswhatsgoingoninthisthrea-ohshit.jpg

>> No.2265231
Quoted by: >>2265246

>>2265210
No one is. No one cares.

>> No.2265235
Quoted by: >>2265246

>>2265225
'Start' as in outcast you as an an immature faggot with an over-active imagination. No thanks, twice is enough for me. All I will say is 'NON-EXISTANT HYDROGEN CAR'. Arsehole.

>> No.2265246
Quoted by: >>2265250

>>2265235
Weren't you the guy shouting that climate change is a government conspiracy?
>>2265231
Good, I can't be fucked talking about it.

>> No.2265250
Quoted by: >>2265254

>>2265246
You wish. Nice try faggot.

>> No.2265254
Quoted by: >>2265265 >>2265278

>>2265250
I don't even know which poster you are.

>> No.2265265
Quoted by: >>2265269

>>2265254
Proof that your infinite faggotry spreads wide across this board.

>> No.2265269
Quoted by: >>2265275

>>2265265
Riiiight.
Noticed that your posts keep bumping this thread?

>> No.2265275
Quoted by: >>2265281

>>2265269
Only to highlight your faggotry tripfag.

>> No.2265278

>>2265254
Who cares if you know who anyone is? Its an anonymous forum, you drama queen

>> No.2265281
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2265281
Quoted by: >>2265284

>>2265275
Have fun, I'm off to have a shower.

>> No.2265282
Quoted by: >>2265289 >>2265292

Reading thevenusproject.com

>Implies resources (including labor) are not scarce
>Implies needs are not infinite
>Implies more than 1% of people will work for free
>Implies that without prices, planners will know if production is efficient or not
>Implying the planners will be incorruptible supermen, no mention of how they are chosen

If you take this shit seriously, please check your forehead for scars; you might be lobotomized.

>> No.2265284
Quoted by: >>2265295 >>2265337

>>2265281
Shower in more faggotry? I would of thought you've done enough of that recently.

>> No.2265289

>>2265282
Money is a pretty indispensable mechanism for transmitting information about demand, supply and value. Even if you give everyone the same or similar wages. It's simple and self-correcting.

>> No.2265292

>>2265282

I get such a kick out of posts like these.

>> No.2265295
Quoted by: >>2265305

>>2265284
lolwut
How old are you?

>> No.2265305
Quoted by: >>2265322

>>2265295
failed retort is failed

>> No.2265315
Quoted by: >>2265325

Its hard to say. The people against it say lol its communism not getting that communism had a government. I would say though that if nanotechnology is going to as good as scientists say it then yes. I dont think the venus project would work now but a post scarcity world is something we should be working to instead of being scared of anything that sounds like communism.

>> No.2265321
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2265321

Read a Culture novel by Iain M Banks. It's as close as we'll get. And it works for them because robots do all the work.

>> No.2265322
Quoted by: >>2265332

>>2265305
nuh-uh! I'm rubber and you're glue! Poo-head!
Can you even hear yourself?

>> No.2265324

I know that unlike communism It has robots do the work and no government being a jerk to everyone. since we can get robots to even do surgery then I think it could work in the next 50 years. bu I know no one will want it cause like this thread shows they will call it communist.

>> No.2265325
Quoted by: >>2265334 >>2265340

>>2265315
The ONLY thing that I think has any merit in this discussion is the fact that capitalism gets sketchy once labor and resources become cheap. You need some amount of socialization (like decent unemployment benefits) to keep transitionary periods from turning into bloody revolutions.

>> No.2265332
Quoted by: >>2265337

>>2265322
>implying that immature response is worth anything more than a 'no u'

>> No.2265334
Quoted by: >>2265341

>>2265325
All you actually need is good propaganda. See Republicans and the United States.

>> No.2265337

>>2265332
>sarcasm detector broken
This whole time, I've been mocking the childishness of >>2265284

>> No.2265340

>>2265325
If your talking about the transition from capitalism to venus project then I would agree that It could get bloody real fast. we would need a lot of people who believe in the cause to do a lot of work. but its not like people have not worked together before.

>> No.2265341

>>2265334
Doesn't fly if you don't have a job or money. Starvation and/or homelessness tend to be great shields against absorbing bullshit.

It's working in the US precisely because no one has it that bad. (Or, at least, not enough people).

>> No.2265381

>>2264695
Because people coulnt do it before it can never be done. Thats why man never learned how to fly.

>> No.2265423
Quoted by: >>2265432 >>2265525

I think that IF the project were ever started, it would be the greatest technocracy ever. That said, it will not likely get started in the near future if ever. After all, so far communisms have been made by powerful men with guns, and ruled by powerful men with guns. A communism run by men in ivory towers, and made by men in ivory towers might have a very different effect.

>> No.2265432
Quoted by: >>2265460

>>2265423
yea but the venus project wont even have a government really. so there would be no one to rule anyone.

>> No.2265460
Quoted by: >>2265461

>>2265432
It has so far proved impossible to make that work either on a large scale or with a diverse population.

>> No.2265461
Quoted by: >>2265505

>>2265460
It has been proven? wouldnt be better if it was a big population because they would have more resources also if everyone got the amount of resources they wanted then thetre would be no need to become powerful.

>> No.2265505

>>2265461
>It has been proven?

The phrase "It has so far proved impossible" implies that so far, yes it has.

>wouldnt be better if it was a big population because they would have more resources

A bigger population does not imply more resources. In fact, it implies less, since it means increased consumption.

>also if everyone got the amount of resources they wanted then thetre would be no need to become powerful.

You don't seem to "get" humanity.

>> No.2265525

>>2265423
Not communism as communism deals with money, though in theory perhaps.

>> No.2265530
Quoted by: >>2265552

>The phrase "It has so far proved impossible" implies that so far, yes it has.
because no one did it right doesnt mean its not possible. it just means they did it wrong and times change. we have better technology today then we did then.
>A bigger population does not imply more resources. In fact, it implies less, since it means increased consumption.
it means a bigger variety of resources and if its a small population then people from other populations will just want what we have.
>You don't seem to "get" humanity.
I get that people do things because of environment and scarcity.

>> No.2265552

>>2265530
>because no one did it right doesnt mean its not possible.

Granted.

>it just means they did it wrong and times change.

Not necessarily.

>we have better technology today then we did then.

Yes, we do. But human nature has not changed.

>it means a bigger variety of resources

Not by itself, no.

>and if its a small population then people from other populations will just want what we have.

I don't know exactly what you're trying to say here.

>I get that people do things because of environment and scarcity.

Are those the only two things? Are there no other sources of motivation?

>> No.2265579
Quoted by: >>2265605

since you only really made 2 good points I will debate them
>Not by itself, no
having a bigger area gives you more resources. also having more people would mean more scientific discover.
>Are those the only two things? Are there no other sources of motivation?
give me other things that motivate people?

>> No.2265605
Quoted by: >>2265631

>>2265579
>having a bigger area gives you more resources

You didn't mention area, only population. A bigger population by itself does not necessarily give you more resources. Thank you for clarifying what you actually meant.

>also having more people would mean more scientific discover.

This you're most likely right about.

>give me other things that motivate people?

Power, for one thing. Unless you're including "self" in environment, you've left out plenty of internal motivations.

>> No.2265631
Quoted by: >>2265641 >>2265663

>>2265605
Wanting power is an environment and scarcity thing. people want power because you get more stuff because its seen as good. also in that kind of system as long as there wasnt scarcity there would be no reason to rule over anyone. the only kind of power I could see if being like the head of a technology deportment or something and I dont see anything wrong with wanting to be that.

>> No.2265641
Quoted by: >>2265666 >>2265669

>>2265631

To decide leaders and fight corruption, could we not just give an aptitude test to all who want the job, then select one at random every 6 months (or more, whatever) and boom, new leader?

>> No.2265663

>>2265631
>Wanting power is an environment and scarcity thing

Not only. It is also an innate drive with no relation to either.

>also in that kind of system as long as there wasnt scarcity there would be no reason to rule over anyone.

Yes, there would be. The desire to rule does not disappear just because you can have any material thing you want. Because it's not just about things. It's about people. Even in your glorious post-scarcity society, where you can have anything you want, you can't have anyONE you want. As long as you have humans, you have the call to power.

>the only kind of power I could see if being like the head of a technology deportment or something and I dont see anything wrong with wanting to be that

Careful. Once you start letting people give orders it's a short step to government. Some would argue that as soon as you have anything like that outside a family context you already have a government, but I'm not that special kind of anarchist, so I won't.

>> No.2265666
Quoted by: >>2265692

>>2265641
Who makes the test?

>> No.2265669

>>2265641
well the venus project was kind of a form of technocracy.
since there would be no money and since crime would be very low there would be no reason for someone to make laws. The only real issue would be how to use resources properly but that wouldnt be something to hard for a computer to do.
If it was who would be in charge of doing a project like a research project then we could get the most skilled person to do it. I dont think there would be really any corruption in that.

>> No.2265692
Quoted by: >>2265703

>>2265666
>666
I'm not falling for your tricks Satan. Your seemingly innocent question can not fool me.

>> No.2265703

>>2265692
Fuck. Foiled again.

Oh- Hey, if you're looking for a government-less post-scarcity society, there are plenty of openings in Hell. Air fare's free.

>> No.2265820

>Not only. It is also an innate drive with no relation to either.
do you have proof of this?
we dont genetically want power for no reason thats environment.
>As long as you have humans, you have the call to power.
why you did not explain this. you for asome reason think that people want to rule for no reason. techically a teacher would be a form of ruler but they dont do it for the power.
>Careful. Once you start letting people give orders it's a short step to government.
Letting a doctor lead a surgery instead of having some random guy do it is not a bad thing. I think people will understand that.

>> No.2265821
Quoted by: >>2265919

The Venus Project is great


If you know nothing of how the world actually works and how we progress as humans

>> No.2265844
Quoted by: >>2265889

Sadly the venus project isnt that popular so people are able to make blanket statements about it without giving real proof of why it wouldn't work.

>> No.2265889
Quoted by: >>2265900 >>2265927

>>2265844

TVP implies we're post scarcity when we're not even close to such a thing.

The kind of event that would have to happen for TVP to even be considered viable it would have to change the world as we know it, dramatically. And the chances are at that point we won't be going 'hurr robots can do all of our labor".

Humans being huge dicks doesn't help either

>> No.2265900
Quoted by: >>2265907

.>>2265889
First off it took that into account and secondly all you were saying is that people want want to do the venus project. that doesnt make it less viable.
now explain which resources we dont have enough of?

>> No.2265907

>>2265900
I meant the humans are dick thing it took into account

>> No.2265919

>>2265821
>If you know nothing of how the world actually works and how we progress as humans
>how we progress as humans
>progress
>progress
>progress

I'm getting really hung up on this word.

>> No.2265927
Quoted by: >>2265942

>>2265889
>hurr robots can do all of our labor

More importantly, mechanisation of manual labour is putting low-grade humans into unemployment, where they become disillusioned and cause social damage at cost to the state and taxpayer. Worse, they sometimes end up in humanities degrees.

In a TVP scenario they will be a surplus of low-grade humans who believe the robots are magic.

>> No.2265928
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2265928

Where TVP is concerned, I think it is a brilliant idea for the future of humanity.

TVP =/= communism

Any argument which argues other wise is retarded and whoever makes said argument should feel bad.

However, it is also true that a bunch of hippie commies and conspiracy theorists join the ranks of TVP. While this is true, it has nothing to do with the movement itself.

Learn to conduct logical arguments /sci/. This entire thread has been "hurrdurr communism hippies"

Protip: Watch the movies, read the manual and some of Fresco's essays before giving your unintelligible two cents.

That being said, TVP can never work unless the entire global monetary system collapses on its own. Even in the event of such a catastrophe, I think we have a 4% chance of TVP becoming a reality in the next 500 years or so.

Definitely an idea worth supporting tho

>> No.2265933
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2265933
Quoted by: >>2265963

I know everything about TVP/TZM.

Ask me anything. hurrdurr communism/hippie comments will be ignored.

>> No.2265942
Quoted by: >>2265950

>>2265927
Or be thankful that boring repetitive jobs can now be done by machines. They now have free time to do what they want.

>> No.2265950
Quoted by: >>2265960 >>2265979

>>2265942
And who will build and maintain the machines? Or is it incumbent on mid- or high-grade humans to keep everything ticking over for the benefit of their unintelligent comrades? Because then these guys will become disillusioned instead.

>> No.2265960

>>2265950

I'd imagine that the ones making the machines would be those with the qualifications to do so. Regardless of what happens during the future of humanity, one thing is sure: technology and science are growing fields which cannot be stopped, regardless of human will.

The need to automate life support systems comes from recognizing that the current way of doing things isn't feasible for humanity's continued existence. Those who create such life support systems, cities, etc will directly benefit from the fruit of their labors, so even according to those who are pessimistic to the good of humanity will have no argument where the production of such technology is concerned.

Furthermore, TVP introduces the concept where what is good for the individual is good for the society. The human race is probably one of few species on this planet who uses a non-scientific approach towards managing our societies.

Even fucking ants seem like they're smart enough to use their resources in such a manner that is most effective for the proliferation of their species. At the same time they manage to stay at equilibrium with their environment.

>> No.2265963
Quoted by: >>2265976

>>2265933
Is it meant to work on a planetary scale? Is it possible for modern economic systems and TVP to coexist in different regions?

>> No.2265976
Quoted by: >>2265988

>>2265963
>>2265963

Interesting question. At this point in the game, the economies of each super power are so closely entwined that a collapse of a single major super power would mean the collapse for the rest.

We owe China money, EU owes us money, and China's infrastructure is collapsing (peak oil is starting to affect the world; China has had to start closing factories due to energy shortages, etc)

Now consider that the entire world is in a deficit. Doesn't take a genius to figure out that the end's coming, whether it be a couple years or 100.

Think back to 2008, when a housing crisis that originated due to a corrupt and idiotic deregulated corporatocracy caused economies around the world to fall into a deep recession.

The way I see things playing out is with a global catastrophe which makes something like the TVP a necessity.

I don't think that europe will become a TVP independent of the rest of the world, if that's what you're asking. Something like that won't even be necessary, when you consider the implications of everything I just said.

>> No.2265979

>>2265950
Just adding that machines can fix machines

>> No.2265980

>>2265979
and machines can design and build other machines amirite?

>> No.2265981

>>2265979

Arguments like this are simply nitpicking. The current way of doing things doesn't make any sense. I won't even bother pointing out why this is true, since any grade 2 thinker could do that on their own.

>> No.2265983
Quoted by: >>2265998

>>2265979
inb4 who will fix the machines that fix the machines?

inb4inb4 lol moar machines XD

>> No.2265988

>>2265976
What do you think will be the primary energy source for TVP?

>> No.2265992

To give a real response to this "hurdurr machine" crazy that threatens to fuck the thread up, let me just say that necessity will dictate everything.

If you know how to fix a machine that's broken, and it's causing an energy shortage where you live or otherwise is fucking up your lifestyle, you'll get off your ass and fix it.

BTW, TVP also places an emphasis on learning and education for humans.

Consider that at least 5% of the population is highly curious about learning things, and have the intelligence to further knowledge and technology.

This, btw, exists in spite of a society which orbits around idolizing models, materialism, vanity, football, etc. In other words, human curiosity has at least partially prevailed against unabated faggotry and stupidity of the masses.

Now consider how many people will be curious about learning in an environment which encourages such a lifestyle.

>> No.2265994

>>2265988
Magic reactors, running on a combination of Love and Hugs.

>> No.2265998

>>2265983
Man I can't even say how many times someone asked that dumb question.

>> No.2265999
Quoted by: >>2266005

>>2265988
If a fundamental misunderstanding of human nature and economics can be harnessed as a source of power, then the Venus Project/Technocracy In. will have all the power it could ever want for mankind's future.

>> No.2266002

>>2265988

Even in today's gas powered infrastructure we have people working on solar energy, geothermal energy, fusion, etc.

It doesn't take a PhD in physics to realize that energy is all around us. You can get energy from volcanoes, waves, the sun, etc.

Wait 'til a fusion system is invented, and it will be eventually.

Even fucking vegetable oil is better than using gasoline. One of my friends has a car that runs on pure vegetable oil, which is made from corn. It's cheaper, easier to produce, and doesn't destroy the environment.

Only reason why we're still using gas is because of capitalism. You have to be an idiot to argue other wise.

>> No.2266005
Quoted by: >>2266019 >>2266031

>>2265999

You know that TVP doesn't utilize an economic model, right?

>> No.2266010
Quoted by: >>2266021

>>2266002
>doesn't destroy the environment
It uses the same combustion process as gasoline. Why doesn't it destroy the environment?

>> No.2266014

>>2265988
Idk but my favorite is geothermal. If they can drill dig enough to have that power be used in places other then iceland then that would be it.

>> No.2266019

>>2266005
you know that tripfagging devalues intellectual pronunciation don't you?

>> No.2266020
Quoted by: >>2266024

>>2266002
>Even in today's gas powered infrastructure we have people working on solar energy, geothermal energy, fusion, etc.
This is almost completely government subsidized. But really this ties into your previous point that some humans do actually care about advancing mankind.

>biolfuels etc: It's cheaper, easier to produce, and doesn't destroy the environment
It is cheaper because of government subsidy. It does damage the environment, to the same extent that all agriculture damages the environment. Using arable land to produce fuel is well known to distort the worldwide food markets. Enjoy powering a car with the energy that could be keeping other humans sustained.

I won't argue that fossil fuels are better though.

>> No.2266021
Quoted by: >>2266894

>>2266010
>>2266010

This is true, but I've heard that it actually is better for the environment as it can degrade faster than traditional oil can, which also makes intuitive since. Either way, It's important that we move away from combustion. The point I was trying to make was that the free market dictates what we can use for energy in order to satiate their desire for growth.

>> No.2266024
Quoted by: >>2266030

>>2266020

Forget combustion then, there are many sources for energy. Also, hydroponics would solve the question you described there.

>> No.2266025
Quoted by: >>2266029

>>2266002
>>It's cheaper, easier to produce, and doesn't destroy the environment.
>>Implying that growing corn has no ecological consequences at all.
It is good to know that magic corn exists that doesn't need fertilizers or farmland or anything adverse to the environment to be grown. Thank God.

>> No.2266028

You know what fuel source is often overlooked? The gasifier. Heat wood, obtain gas, burn in engine. Simple.

>> No.2266029
Quoted by: >>2266033

>>2266025

enough with the fucking corn, stop nitpicking.

I was wrong. fuck corn up the ass and fuck combustion. Now move on.

But btw, hydroponics can make anything abundant with less energy input than we currently have

>> No.2266030

>>2266024
Everything you just said is retarded.

>> No.2266031
Quoted by: >>2266034 >>2266048

>>2266005
I know they don't have an economic model. Dreams and rainbows and happy thoughts and fairy dust are how the future will run according to them. They don't think that they need a coherent economic model to be taken seriously.

>> No.2266033
Quoted by: >>2266037

>>2266029
>>But btw, hydroponics can make anything abundant with less energy input than we currently have
Wrong. It is MORE resource and energy intensive to use hydroponics than to use regular farming.

>> No.2266034
Quoted by: >>2266047

>>2266031

Actually, the real tragedy is that we haven't found a way to convert bitter sarcasm and self-deluded arrogance into energy. Pity, because every hummer owner in the world would never have to rely on gasoline.

>> No.2266037
Quoted by: >>2266069

>>2266033
>>2266033

Wrong.

>> No.2266047
Quoted by: >>2266070

>>2266034
I'm afraid that would result in an early apocalypse. At least half the Internet would suddenly become a horrible exploding energy emitter and the ocean would start to boil off.

You'd be better off turning pedophilia into an energy source. Then we could use the catholic church for something useful.

>> No.2266048

>>2266031
Are going to make real points?

>> No.2266069
Quoted by: >>2266166 >>2266178

>>2266037
>mfw Vox saw the word "hydroponics" on TVP website and now he recites it too

The only resource you save by using hydroponics is space. You could use natural or artificial light or both (but of course there is no candidate energy source so artificial lights are out) and I'm sure clever engineering could make lighting efficient. There's some guy doing the rounds on 4chan talking about some genetic engineering on plants to make them not even require light.

The other thing you need is nutrients. Artificial fertilizers are manufactured from crude oil, a resource you have previously denounced. This is the biggest problem TVP faces and has no answer for.

Pesticides are also manufactured from crude oil but there are good natural alternatives.

>> No.2266070
Quoted by: >>2266094

>>2266047

True dat.

Peace grade 2; grade 1 anons.

I'm leaving this thread

>> No.2266094

>>2266070
>bawww I can't defend my religious beliefs

>> No.2266110
Quoted by: >>2266116

Sounds like some hippy comune shit to me.

I stopped reading when the info page mentioned "global civilization".

>> No.2266116

>>2266110

My bad *Commune. Before someone herps and derps about my spelling.

>> No.2266145
Quoted by: >>2266190

So wait. Am I to understand TVP is just some asshole's political ideas? Ie they're not actually DOING anything but call themselves a "project" because "party" is oh so phasé?

>> No.2266166

>>2266069
So some thing currently need oil. So what? As long as we don't have millions of cars everywhere using gas we are going to do a lot better for the environment then are current system.

>> No.2266178

>>2266069
A lot of hydroponic farms are doing more then just save space, they are also saving energy. Blue gold is a documentory that talks about that.

>> No.2266190
Quoted by: >>2266194

>>2266145
A political party would have elected officials and junk like that. Tvp doesn't want to get a guy in office so its not a political party.

>> No.2266194
Quoted by: >>2266201

>>2266190

So it's doing even less than a political party, then? Some guy wrote a book and it's suddenly a "project"? Do you at least distribute the book?

>> No.2266201
Quoted by: >>2266206

>>2266194
we show people movies, books and other stuff about it. whatever will get people to learn about and like the project.

>> No.2266206
Quoted by: >>2266213

>>2266201

Great. Add a weekly dinner to that and you'll be on par with new age cults.

>> No.2266212
Quoted by: >>2266216

Frankly, I've seen societies in science fiction novels and movies that have a much better chance to function properly than this Venus thing.

>> No.2266213

>>2266206
we want to teach people about something means we are a cult. we dont have any traditions or anything like that. what are you going to call gay people a cult when they want to spread equality?

>> No.2266216
Quoted by: >>2266348 >>2266377

>>2266212
Instead of giving a blanket statement give a real reason why it would not work.

>> No.2266257

>If you were born in Nazi Germany and grew up in that environment you were a German

Jacque Fresco approved for hating Germany

>> No.2266263

bump for luck

>> No.2266300

>no money or exchange

Why do people think this will ever work?

>> No.2266348
Quoted by: >>2267660

>>2266216
As evil as some people think the monetary system is, members in a society without one will have to suffer A LOT of privation. Sure, they'll have the basic stuff they're promosed but will lack many things we take for granted.

Individuals living in and used to the materialistic and capitaistic world we have today are going to have an extremely hard time adapting to this new way of life. If ever built, the project's most probable way of failure will be lack of residents.

And another thing- as far as I know, they're shunning nuclear energy for the sake of green power, qhich is downright retarded.

>> No.2266377

>>2266216

Who does the dirty work for these cities? Robots? Then whoever designs and builds and programs robots holds the city by the short and friskies. There's profitability by going into the robot trade for these cities. Not money but power.

>> No.2266737
Quoted by: >>2266844

<<Who does the dirty work for these cities?
the same people as usual, only more. since we wont be pressured to raise money for studies or consider becoming a stock analyst in the first place.

about the energy source for TVP: you guys know the main obstacle for green power/nuclear fusion/any other alternative energy sources is the lobbyism leading the politics.

about the benefits of the actual monetary system: TVP doesnt need to strictly get rid of the financial system. on a long term the
ressource

<<<<Why do people think this will ever work?
bacause its the coolest thing to ever happen. and it is an evolutionary essential step for the success of a future species where the needs of every individual are fullfilled. and thats what society is aspiring for, but never reaches.

btw. dont line up TVP with communism because its not like that at all, its actually unlike everything already applied.

the big problem is actually the fcked up marketing of the idea. which led you all disregarding it as communism. i think the few sites about TVP require to actually read thoroughly, its nothing eye-catching.

>> No.2266844
Quoted by: >>2267670

>>2266737
Needs of every individual fufilled, bureaucractic sounding policies, striving for utopian like isolation, idealism. Sounds like communism to me.

>> No.2266894

>>2266021
Huehuehue
Free market includes you. You've been brainwashed to think that businessmen tell you what to buy, but in capitalism, the only reason "green fuel" isn't a success is because there isnt a market. Socialism is where demand is directed by the government. You should fear different men in suits, hippie.

>> No.2267660

>>2266348
Im just going to say no to all those assumptions

>> No.2267670

>>2266844
you either dont know what tvp is or what communism is.
and no one said it would be a utopia.

>> No.2267709
Quoted by: >>2268825

All I hear from you guys Is lol its communism without giving a real reason of why it would not work.

>> No.2268781

and god said, you shall be bumped

>> No.2268825
Quoted by: >>2268946

>>2267709
Because it's communism.

>> No.2268946

>>2268825
Yea except the government, power thing and how the resources get distributed . Its like saying all capitalist are fascists because they both involve money.

>> No.2269328

It's an idea. My problem with Fresco's plans is the same problem I have with most social systems: It leaves little room for conflicts of interest, which is crucial to our functioning at the moment.

What I mean is - let's take capitalism for example. You work to live, which is reasonable, but what agenda do you work toward? And with whom do you work? Capitalism offers little freedom in this area, so we have people working with people they hate, toward agendas they don't approve of, and so we have deadly conflicts even though food and shelter are mostly provided. Communism and socialism do the same.

The Venus project would remove currency and use machines for labor, but people and machines will still work toward agendas, and they won't like it if someone with conflicting plans is benefiting from their labor and machines. If anything, the project could only work if people can still separate into agenda-driven organizations

>> No.2269367
Quoted by: >>2269539 >>2269550

>can still separate into agenda-driven organizations
It never said people cant, but I dont think people will not want to give the cure to cancer to a church because they have a different belief.

>> No.2269539

>>2269367
It doesn't, no, in fact I was planning to e-mail Fresco and see what he thought, since his outline doesn't seem to cover it. I just want to word it right before sending anything. I've studied this stuff for years and I think the freedom to choose conflicting agendas should be central to any social model, not just optional

>> No.2269550

>>2269367
Also, I wouldn't give the church the cure for anything

>>
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